PODCAST SHOWNOTES

Nicole Otchy: If you've ever launched something in your styling business and immediately felt the pressure to change it or water it down from your initial vision, because people started asking for something different, then this episode is for you. My client and today's guest, Carrie Harkin, built a color training system, specifically for personal stylists, rooted in her years at the Nike Color Lab. And from day one, people were asking when she would offer it virtually. She didn't. And on today's episode, she shares what happened when she stuck to her vision and why it ended up differentiating her.

This is The Six Figure Personal Stylist podcast. I'm Nicole Otchy and this is a show for personal stylists building world-class businesses and setting the standards in their industry. We're talking all things profitable growth, thought leadership and real client transformations. Because the best stylists don't just edit closets, they shape culture. Welcome to the show.

Nicole Otchy: Hi Carrie, thank you for being with me today.

Carrie Harkin: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Nicole Otchy: All right, let's kick this off and tell the people what they want to know. Tell me where you're from and how long you've been a stylist.

Carrie Harkin: So I am based in San Diego and I have been, it's always hard to answer that question. I've been in the fashion industry for over 20 years, but I've started my business, it's my fourth year in business.

Nicole Otchy: Amazing. So I want to get into a little bit of your interesting background as we kick this off. You, before you started your business, you worked at the Nike color lab. And I'm curious to hear a little bit about how that shaped the way that you think about color, as a stylist and how it informs the work that you do.

Carrie Harkin: So I went to school at FAT in New York and then after that I went back out to Portland, Oregon, where I was born and raised. And in Beaverton is Nike. So it's like kind of the big man on campus there. Yeah, so I got the opportunity to work in their Nike color lab, they have lots of different divisions and everything, but this one in particular, the project I worked on was taking like their physical swatches and, you know, kind of what the collection was around that season and making it into a digital catalog for the rest of the company, you know, wide to utilize. And so immediately like you know, I'm green, I'm new to the mentor who I was working with, the biggest thing I recognized immediately, it was about training your eye, understanding the depths and the different elements and all the intricacies that color is made up of. And at first I was like, oh my gosh, this is so like, are we really pulling hairs here? But it really made such a difference, because it also is the physical had to replicate onto the digital. And, you know, designing collections and all of these things around the marketing psychology, all of these different elements that the color was being used for, it mattered. And so that's where I really got all of my learnings from about color and just what it's made up of, the undertones, chroma, value, light, dark, all of these different things. And after that, I went on to be a buyer for many years and then I went into personal styling. And having that knowledge just from the get-go was such a tool that I didn't realize how strong it was, until I just kind of went through those years, because it really made me understand, OK, this is why this collection looks this way. This is what is going to work for this woman and maybe this man and not this woman. And it all connects and it all comes back to color a lot of the time. There's neutral, there's all these different elements of color that having that knowledge just, it made me feel like I had a leg up from from the beginning, because a lot of people in fashion, you know, it's a lot about vibes, it's a lot about just intuition and which I have that too, like absolutely. But there's something to be said for knowing these series and this more technical side of things, because you can speak to it in a much more professional and expert way. And I just felt that always was an advantage.

Nicole Otchy: I would assume too that like Nike is a humongous company and they're spending a lot of money on this. There's a reason. It's not for no reason that Nike has a color love.

Carrie Harkin: Oh yeah, they're their marketing geniuses. So the number one, they're a marketing company that just sells products. And so the color behind all of that is front and foremost. It's vital.

Nicole Otchy: When you became a stylist and started like, you know, meeting other stylists, getting education from other people in the industry and sort of seeing what was out there, after having had this experience. What did you feel like was incomplete, or not accurate in the way that you saw color being talked about, given that you have this background?

Carrie Harkin: Two things. One, I felt again, I think the entry point or, you know, getting, becoming a stylist is very low. There's not really formal training for a stylist. There's not really a school or anything. And so, you know, a lot of people are coming in with not a lot of experience, but they're fabulous at what they do.

Nicole Otchy: Right.

Carrie Harkin: It's just that they don't have that technical background or that knowledge. And even talking with stylists that have been doing it for many, many years, after kind of talking about color with them, they'd be like, you know what, like, I get by, I can kind of understand, I can budge it and it's a little bit like fake it till I make it kind of thing and it's fine. But I can never really say with confidence when a client asks me, why does this wash me out? Or why are you picking that color over this color? Why should we do this over that? They couldn't really explain it in a way that felt confident. It was just kind of like, oh, it just doesn't look, let's just do something else, or I don't know. It just felt a little wishy-washy. So I always just, there's that piece. And then the second part of that, just the industry as a whole, when it comes to color and the teachings and training that are out there, it just felt like, well, it is, it's more of just offering this one-off service. It was built in a different time for a different industry, for just a different thing. And so now as personal stylists try to integrate it into their business, there's this disconnect. There's no integration being taught, it's this one-off thing, you're a color analyst and this is what it is. There's often that gap or that break that just isn't, there's no bridge.

Nicole Otchy: There's no bridge and that means also that you have two different industries in one. You have people that do color analysis and then you have people that are stylists and it created this like weird, like two different camps almost. That is very strange, as someone who's been in the industry for a long time, I've also thought of it that way.

Carrie Harkin: It's a little crippling, because the way that… When I talk to other stylists, who have taken those trainings, it just, it felt crippling that they are being taught in a way that is dependent on these different systems that are just very disconnected and disjointed from their styling business. So it just felt very separate.

Nicole Otchy: So you have been a stylist, you’re now in your fourth year and you had this amazing fashion experience, you had this experience with color, you're in a good market for styling. What was it that you were really looking for, when you went to personal styling that you weren't able to find in your past experience in the fashion industry?

Carrie Harkin: The personal connection, that's number one, always. I always think of it, or when I talk to people, it's like, I love helping people and my superpower happens to be clothes and fashion. And so that's my way of helping people, buying and all these things, you're just so disconnected from the customer. And so this was just really boots on the ground, working with people one-on-one. And the creative aspect of it too, just kind of being in that more of that creative realm, but just working with people one-on-one, that was the number one thing.

Nicole Otchy: It's interesting, because I think you talked a little bit about that like intuitive side which knowing you personally as long as I have, like it… you clearly have that element to you as a stylist and as a person, like you have that warmth. But you also bring with you from your experience as a buyer and from the industry of fashion an incredible analytical mind, I have seen. I don't know if other people get to see as much as I do, but spreadsheets and numbers and those things, you really know how to do that. And I think that marrying the two has been an interesting thing as you build a curriculum. Why do you think so many stylists have such rigid views of the color analysis industry either way? I feel like the answer is somewhere in that intuitive versus analytical split.

Carrie Harkin: Yes. Yeah, a thousand percent. Well, and I think it's also what we've said too, like it's just that it feels so disjointed. Like the way that it's taught is very rigid. And I think a lot of color analysts out there, not all, I don't want it to be a blanket statement, but just from what I hear, like they're very stuck in the way and like, this is it. If you are not, I'm making, if you're not a winter, like you shouldn't be wearing black. And I'm just like, no, I think anybody can wear black. Like it's very, it's, it is very like kind of stuck in the way. And so that takes out that intuition. And that's what I think most personal stylists are just turned off from. Cause it's just like, ah, that just kind of like dampens all of that intuition. And so honestly, how I think about color is, it's more about the knowledge of color. It's more about understanding the undertones, just having that color knowledge, the color analysis piece, that, if you want to use that and make that part of your services or part of your process. Awesome. But if you don't, I think that's just as valid. It's just knowing that information. That's what you're going to use in your conversations with your clients. That's what you're going to use, when you're shopping for your clients. That's really what I think is first and foremost, it's the knowledge and it's training one-on-one on color. You know, like I said in the beginning, cut most personal status, they haven't gone to school, they don't know this. It's just one of those basic classes that I think anybody in the creative realm should be taking. And so that's what it's about.

Nicole Otchy: It's also about something that you mentioned early on, when you were talking about the Nike color lab, which is that they think a lot about the psychology of color, because they are, first and foremost, some of the best marketers in the world. And as stylists, I think it's uncomfortable to think of yourself as being the marketing team for your clients when you dress them. But you kind of are, if you think about it in a different way, trying to help them think about how they want to feel, how they want to show up. And color is a tool in that, whether you do it in this, how that looks is different for everybody. But if you want to talk about and everyone listening here probably does, psychology and transformation and those things, you should probably know how that actually works.

Carrie Harkin: Yes. There's so much psychology around color and that's what I think is so interesting. I could go into so many different examples and different things, like how color shows up in people's lives and how they use it subconsciously. That's why it's so interesting. So why not be conscious about it?

Nicole Otchy: Yeah, it's like a superpower.

Carrie Harkin: It is a superpower and knowing your lovers when it comes to that, especially if your clients are, you know, client facing on camera, not even, but even if they're just walking into a, you know, a boardroom full of men, like all of these things matter and you're not going to put them in, I don't know, bright purple suit. Like it's going to be different for different audiences and having got to know that you're going to be advising your

Nicole Otchy: What's interesting too is and I want to talk about your business a little bit, is that you do do, I mean, not only do you have color training for stylists, but you do do color in your styling business. But talk to me a little bit about the way that you have integrated it, because I don't view you as a color analyst first, I never have. I've known you for a couple years now, two years and I never got that impression. So, how do you use this in your services as a stylist?

Carrie Harkin: Two different ways. So my styling clients who sign up for my styling packages, I kind of call it a foundational intro session and I do do a color analysis for them. But I think how I talk about it and how I approach it with clients is… That's the difference, I talk about it very lightly like it's this visual thing going through, you know, the analysis and that's what I think is powerful for clients. Then they see it firsthand and then they get it. And like, oh, that's why I have this and they'll go run to their closet. This is why I have this blazer and I never wear it because I always feel weird in it. They're like, that's because it's not the right color, it just clicks for them. And again, it's something tangible that they can take. I don't really push it. It's just like a visual thing for them to understand. And yeah, OK, these are your best colors. When we talk about neutrals, this is where you want to stick versus here. We talk about all of that. And then I kind of leave it there. I'm like, wear what you want to wear, honestly. And if you want to wear this bright coral top and it doesn't do great things for you, these are the tricks you can do to offset it. And you'll be fine. It's just starting that conversation, because that will take us through the process. And it's really sweet, because most people, they keep bringing it up. They're like, I get it now. I see it. This makes sense. And it's just, yeah. Because, you know, most of our clients are analytical. They're not vibes and intuition. That's why they're hiring us. Oh, like they need something. They need a framework to be able to grasp on to be like, OK, I learned something today. Like this is so informative. And this is the first 10 minutes that you're here.

Nicole Otchy: Right, it sets this tone and it's not what you lead with as a stylist. You still call yourself a stylist. You don't say I'm a color analyst. You say I'm a stylist that has this tool. And it is a tool that they get to have, too and feel that agency over, which then makes them a partner, because they understand, they're not just trying to rely on your vibes, which they may not be vibing with at some point in the process.

Carrie Harkin: Yeah, no, so many stylists have told me they're like, oh, yeah, you know, sometimes like the color thing can get tricky. You know, some of my clients kind of doubt me and I don't know how to talk about it. And it's like, well, yeah, that's if you had that color knowledge and would be able to talk about it in an expert way, then it could be different for you.

Nicole Otchy: So your business got up and going for only being four years and now that I think about this. I'm like, wow, by the time I met you, you were really off and going. So Carrie and I met because she did my accelerator program a year ago. Because we've been working together one-on-one for about eight months now, so at least a year and a half ago, a year ago. And you were pretty established, you were doing really well. Where were you in your business at that point and what was it that you were looking to sort of up-level?

Carrie Harkin: I would listen to your podcast before we even talked. I found it and I followed you on Instagram and I just felt like you're really good at messaging and you were really good at communicating. And I was like, she's really interesting. I've worked with coaches in the past at different times and I felt like they worked for where I was, but where I was when I wanted to work with you is like, okay, I'm doing pretty okay, but I want to push it to the next level. I want my messaging to be tighter. I want to make sure that my pricing is on point. I just want to tighten it up, because I felt like, okay, I've kind of gone through those first couple of years. I understand kind of where I am, what I have to offer and I just want to package it and tighten it up. And that's kind of what I came into the Accelerator, wanting to get your points of view, but also the, I always love meeting other stylists like that and just kind of understanding their points of view and advice and where they were. So it was really about just like refining and tightening.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah. And we definitely upped your prices. We cleaned up your services pretty significantly. And I would say that what was born out of it was a better business. But like a lot of people don't expect this is clarity on what was next, which happened to be a bit of a different direction.

Carrie Harkin: Yeah. Well, I think I felt like, oh, I want to, I just… I always… When I even started my… started the styling business, I was like, oh, I want, I want to create something that can be another arm of the styling business, or something else that can maybe drive its own self kind of, sort of in the future. Yeah. I'm just always kind of tinkering and thinking about the next thing and the pros and cons of it, but, yeah.

Nicole Otchy: So in the Accelerator, we worked with the foundation and we upped the prices, you were already doing pretty well. Lots of people are listening to this and thinking like, oh, I want another thing and we're going to talk more in depth about this other thing, which is color training for stylists. But I often get on calls with people that are not where you were on, when we had our discovery call, which was pretty steady income, heading towards six figures very comfortably, really high profit, maybe a little tired, because you had a little bit too much on your plate, we needed to clean it up. But you were getting to six figures with or without me, that was very clear. And so when you think about what needed to happen to put in the time and effort to create this program over the last eight months, what would you tell people who think, oh, like, you know, I'm not a consistent income with clients. I'm not getting the kind of people I want. But I also want to do this other thing. Like, what would you tell them about what is going to be ahead of them that they should know?

Carrie Harkin: It’s like a second job…

Nicole Otchy: It ain't passive, that's for sure.

Carrie Harkin: Well, it's not. It's definitely like starting a different, another business, honestly. You know, like it's in… my training thing is integrated with my personal styling business, but it's definitely it's a whole other endeavor. So it's like a second job.

Nicole Otchy: It's a whole other client base, basically.

Carrie Harkin: Yes, exactly. A whole other messaging, like, yes, totally.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah. And it's, would you say that having that one-to-one steadily in the background, gave you the bandwidth?

Carrie Harkin: Yes, yeah. When we started working together and I was like, okay, I want to venture off and do this other arm too, for about a year, I had been consistent with my clients. And that I think gave me the confidence to be like, okay, this is kind of just going on. I have to of course still work at it, but it was consistent. Yeah, if I didn't have that, I don't think I would have been as confident. I mean, like, I need to figure this out.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah, because it's exciting to try something new. And I think you, like all of us in this field, are creative. And so, like, you're always thinking of new things and getting excited. But because I think you're so good with numbers too, you were looking at the things that mattered, because it was going to take attention away from, you know, just the amount of work it takes to build out something new from, like, the one-to-one piece.

Carrie Harkin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have all my, yeah, you said it, I have all my spreadsheets and I forecast out and I really, that's from my buying years. So yeah, I think having that and knowing like what's coming and what to kind of plan for and forecast that definitely helps a lot for me at least. Yeah.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah. What would you say the biggest surprise has been as we've been... So this is all Carrie's intellectual property for the record, this is not mine. She has created this curriculum and I've helped her shape it and bring it out to the world, market it, think through all of the pricing and basically building a second part of the business, quite frankly, from a strategy perspective. What would you say the most surprising part of all of this work has been?

Carrie Harkin: I think what you said, yeah, it's messaging to a different audience and it's really chipping away at a different market, really. And also it takes time. I don't know if that's surprising. I think I learned that from starting the styling business. And so it's like, OK, it's just it's going to take time again. Like it's just going to build it up.

Nicole Otchy: It's hard to do something from scratch, even if you're excited about it when you have mastery in another area, because you forget. You forget how vulnerable and uncomfortable... We've talked about this all the time, Carrie and I. It's rough out there.

Carrie Harkin: Yeah. I like talked to you all the time, am I crazy? Am I doing this right? But yeah, there's that.

Nicole Otchy: It's to stick into it, when it doesn't feel comfy, especially when you're used to having a successful business like you. And it's not... I heard you say, I have to work at it. You do. But I also want people to know that are listening that are not where you are in your one-to-one business. It certainly does not feel like as much work once you get the plan right. It's not on autopilot. She still has to show up, but it's nowhere when it feels like, I don't know how to make any money. It's not the same output. And you can bring a lot of the confidence that you have in yourself and your ability to show, oh, I can persevere through hard times to this new building of the business. And once you get that in one part of your life, you can bring it over. Bring it over.

Carrie Harkin: Absolutely. I think that's one thing I know about myself, just in general, is that once I start something, I'm like, I got to keep doing it. I think that's always the thing, right? You just keep going.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah, you do. I love that about you. I love that it's like, you can have your meltdowns, but it's never, I never think you're in my box room saying like negotiating out of it with me. And I love that, because you're my people. It's okay to melt down, but you melt down, you go for a walk, you have a glass of wine, or you go for, again, go for a walk is probably the healthy thing I should have said and then you keep it moving.

Carrie Harkin: Totally. Yeah, just keep going. I know. I think that's one thing too that I've, I was talking about this with my son last night is, you know, starting a business is when you become comfortable being uncomfortable. And I'm grateful that I'm at that point. I mean, I still have anxiety and like, I don't know, sweaty hands.

Nicole Otchy: You're not a psychopath, you should, like that's normal.

Carrie Harkin: But I'll do it.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah. Same, I have it, too, especially as I grow. It's anxiety producing, but it's worth it. I can't think of a lot of things that are… that I've experienced in life that were high anxiety that had as big of a payoff. Like I think of jobs that were hard or anxiety, but like there wasn't a whole lot of payoff. You just had to deal with jerks or something. This is different. Yeah. Carrie has created this program for stylists that we've sort of touched on here, that really is a… it's so fascinating to see it be born into the world, because it really is a very modern take on color analysis and it's a very doable take. As someone who saw this world for years and quite honestly never went into it, I was so afraid, as someone with raging ADHD that I would never remember all of the colors and the seasons. And what if I got it wrong? And what if I didn't know if Mulberry versus this other thing was…

Carrie Harkin: Right.

Nicole Otchy: And so when Carrie came to me and said like I want to build this and I looked at what you were saying, I was like, this is what we all need, because it's not overwhelming and it's so valuable. So tell me a little bit about your process and some of the things that make it unique.

Carrie Harkin: So my process, kind of what I mentioned before, it goes back to kind of my roots of just, it's about training your eye. It's really about being able to, it's funny, because I might not know the names of every single color, but I can tell you what's warm, what's cool. I can tell you all the things. And so even if your client comes to you and it's like, I don't know, I have these two different purples, like which one should I do? You should very immediately pick that one, because that one's going to make you look like crap. That's really number one. It's about training your eye. It's about understanding what makes up color, so that you can speak to it in an expert way.

Nicole Otchy: When you talk to stylists, because you did a bunch of market research before you started, what were some of the things that you heard from them, when they were a little like, I'm not sure about this?

Carrie Harkin: Those are my favorite people to talk to, because I'm like, what are the objections? And a lot of them were like, well, you know, a couple of them were just like, I'm doing fine. I have a good business. I've been doing this for years. I don't really see a need for it. And, you know, I don't know if I really want to be that color person. Like, I don't want to lead with that. And that was a big thing, I think, that I heard a lot. They're like, I don't want to be known as a color analyst.

Nicole Otchy: Okay, I'm going to pause there, because I want to get into this, because this is what the internet wants to hear that no one's talking about. Let's just say what people mean, because and here's the thing I want to disqualify this. Everyone's a big big adult that's listening, they can handle their own feelings. But I think it's important, whether you come from a more traditional color analysis world, or you're a stylist listening and you're like yeah that's me, because that's a lot of my clients, because of just how I am. I think I attract a lot more of that person that's like I'm good. What is the, I don't want to be that person? Like what do they mean, when they say that?

Carrie Harkin: Look, like Color Me Beautiful, like all of this stuff, it was created in the 80s. And so a lot of, not all, but you know, a lot of women who are teaching trainings or nurse color analysts are from that time. And a lot of that stuff hasn't evolved or changed in the last how many years. So I think that's what they think. It's outdated and it's a bit archaic. And it's, I don't know, like these women walking around in like clown outfits, because like it's color and like it's all like… and it’s like, but nobody dresses like that.

Nicole Otchy: That's their whole personality is what you're basically saying.

Carrie Harkin: Yeah.

Nicole Otchy: It's not like, there's not a lot of, the idea on the outside is there's not a lot of sophistication. Now, do I know people that do color that do? Yes, but do they lead with it in a way that you would off the bat recognize it? No. Carrie is a perfect example.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah.

Nicole Otchy: And I think it's important, not because we're putting anyone down, but it's important to know, in order to be successful in business, what the perception is, not of everyone, but of the lowest common denominator. So you can decide, am I playing towards that or not? And I also think it's outdated and seen as outdated, because, as I've heard for so many of my clients, the pricing structure is basically a structure in the modern, in the not modern version of it, where it is impossible to make real money and be a real businesswoman. And that is the outdated part that most of my clients want nothing to do with.

Carrie Harkin: So true. Yeah. And talking with other stylists, who have done other trainings, some of the business advice they were given in these trainings, they're like, it's wild. Like it's outdated. It doesn't work for the modern stylist or modern business. And there's no way to sustain yourself just with how they were teaching. So, yeah. So I talk about all of that in the training also, I'm very transparent. This is what I priced things out. This is where I put, you know, in my process, how I do it. And another thing we didn't talk about, I do do groups. Women love it. It's such a fun party thing. People love it. And so I'll tell you how I price that, how I structure that. And also, I do do talks, like style presentations and all of that for bigger corporate groups. And so I do integrate that as kind of an interactive activity at the end, which is always a hit. So, I'll tell you all about that, too.

Nicole Otchy: It fits into a comprehensive and modern business plan and that is one of the reasons why we were working together. And one of the things I've seen through the development of this is that, like, what is missing from the majority of color analysis programs? And I have worked with someone that's done at least multiple styles, who has done almost every single one out there. And as a stylist back in the day, I had a lot of clients that did, you know, color, maybe, you know, all those different ones. And I can tell you without a doubt that there are so many ways that people should be learning to use the tool of color analysis to build a multiple six figure business, as you have, like in the way that you've done it, that don't look anything like and are not even in the arena of what people are teaching people out of those programs. So they're de-incentivizing people to want to feel like a modern and successful businesswoman with it. And it's too bad.

Carrie Harkin: It really is. Because again, I think at the heart of it and that's why when I was thinking about this training and thinking about color analysis years ago, I was like, it's too bad, because the heart of color analysis and what it is is extremely valuable. It's just how it's been packaged is unfortunate. To your point, it's a bit of a detractor, because it's like, it comes with all of these other stereotypes.

Nicole Otchy: And I think also, it's important to note that, like, we're seeing the stereotypes in the world of personal stylists, which is a very context-sensitive and savvy group. Like, stylists are stylists, because they're reading rooms, because they have that sense. I'm not saying that everybody that encounters color analysis feels that way. There's plenty of people that are very busy making, you know, an unlivable wage in color analysis. People, there's a demand, there just isn't always the right fit for people that have a different bigger business plan so the the training is mostly about teaching stylists or is about teaching stylists how to take this knowledge and fold it into an existing styling practice, you have to already be up and going, you have to have clients.

Carrie Harkin: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think knowing, yeah, how your business and your process works and kind of where the holes are might be, or where the opportunities are, I should say, is extremely helpful. So you're coming in with kind of maybe an idea or just you're open, you're open to this, to what's being offered.

Nicole Otchy: And you've already done one of these trainings, so tell me a little bit about some of the ahas that the stylists who joined had, because it was so cool to hear from Carrie the next day. I was so excited.

Carrie Harkin: No, I loved it. It just made me feel like, OK, there is a need for this. A few of the stylists were very much those stylists that had been in business. They were not really into it. They're like, cool, I'll come. I'm, you know, I'm intrigued. I'm open, but they were not like really thinking like, I'm going to make this part of my business. And I mean, within the first, I don't know, half an hour, hour, like they were like, oh, they're like, okay, I get it. I understand why this is important to know. And it's valuable for just communicating to clients, all these things. Like it was just, because I think, yeah, everyone gets hung up on like, it's going to be all about the fabric drapes and the all about that. Yeah, that's part of it again, but it that's not the essence of it. It's again, it's knowing how to train your eye to see the differences and just understanding color. Yeah, so it was so interesting, because at the end, I didn't even really push it. I have, so I create all my own drapes, all my materials, I've created it all myself, to be cohesive with my own method of it. Yeah, they all walked away with wanting to, with their own drapes and they just wanted all the things and they're like, all the women, those stylists that I thought would be like, yeah, this is cool. Okay. See you later. They're like, okay, what do I need and how do I implement this? Like they, and one of the, yeah, a couple of them, they're already integrated into their business. The one that was most against it, she texted me the other, like last week, like, okay, I'm going to do an event and I want to do the color thing. I'm like, it's like literally paying for itself.

Nicole Otchy: That's what's so crazy about this. I mean, I think that that is how good trainings and when you are professional, which is what you're giving people, this sense of professionalism that the industry really is lacking, is you're giving them tools that literally pay the bills, like make you look so much more of an expert. That is not how this has been viewed. It's either been viewed as its own thing or, you know, outdated. And it's like it's neither. It is part of a bigger packaging of being an expert, which means like, you know, Carrie's thing is not going to fix it, if you can't price yourself. It's not going to be able to fix it if you can't do basic… So like you need to know these things and then this is where it starts to become a multiplier for you.

Carrie Harkin: Yeah, a thousand percent, absolutely. You know, I was thinking about it too. And this is a training. Like you can write this off. Like this is something that is adding to your business. Like it's definitely a…

Nicole Otchy: Yeah, yeah. There's a huge ROI on this. One of the things we've talked about a lot because we work through positioning this together and thinking through this and one of the things that I have seen, in the industry, is the concern around AI. And I'd love for you to just share a little bit about your thoughts on why actually that has changed the seriousness with which you feel this needs to be a skill stylists have.

Carrie Harkin: I think it makes it even more serious and more should be top of mind for stylists, because most of your clients have already been on an AI app. They've been doing it themselves and they might have gotten one answer, but a lot of my clients have told me, yeah, I did the AI thing. I've gotten multiple different answers. Like, I have no idea. AI is not giving a straightforward, concise, decisive information. You need to be able to talk to, to speak to that. Like when your client tells you, I did this, I don't even know, like this is what AI said. And so you need to have that knowledge to be able to say, you know what, AI actually was not too far off here, but X, Y, Z, with this in mind, or okay, yeah, AI is all over the place. Like let's get into it and let's narrow it down and give you answers. Because if you can't, I mean, I just think of like the scenario of, okay, you're going to see a client. They're like, I just did all of these AI apps. I don't really get an answer. Like, what do you think I am? Because you don't offer color analysis, but like, what do you think? And you're going to be like, I don't know. Let's just like your hair color's black. I guess red would be good for you or your eyes are green, maybe just like different greens. Like it's not giving them something tangible and something like, okay, I feel confident that she knows what she's talking about and I'm going to go with her instead of AI.

Nicole Otchy: Critical, because as it gets better. that will be more and more of a thing that you need to be able to talk about. Because AI can't teach people how to navigate context with color. That's the other part of this.

Carrie Harkin: Exactly. And how to utilize that and integrate it into your wardrobe. All of those things.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah, I truly don't… and I've talked about it before, I don't think stylists will ever be outrun by AI, but it is raising the bar for professionalism, because you just have to have the knowledge. So one of the things that you and I talked a good amount about is how this training was going to work. And one of the things you felt very strongly about that I want you to share is why it has to be in person.

Carrie Harkin: I mean, definitely when I first put it out there, lots of people were like, okay, when are you going to offer this virtually? Like, I can't come to you, it's in person. And I just, for my own values and just the integrity of the training and what I want to offer to stylists, I can't in my right mind do a virtual training. It needs to be in person, at least the first time. You need to be able just to not get too scientific with it, but like how light reflects and all of these things, like doing it virtually, you lose a lot of that. And so yeah, you might get the ideas, but to really, the training your eye and all of that stuff, it gets kind of lost. So you need to be in person, you really need… It's a very tactile thing. You need to be in person and I, you know, and then I'm there with you going through the process and I can help guide you. It just kind of gets tricky virtually. And so I really stand that it needs to be in person. I'm going to try to make my different rounds, so be in LA, but it's something that I feel strongly about. And the virtual thing, I don't know how that will evolve, but it's not anytime soon.

Nicole Otchy: There's really something to be said for having standards in your business and especially when you really stand for people hitting a next level of mastery for saying like, no, actually, and I say this, because I think the industry has lost a lot of its in-person luster in a lot of ways. I think that I see a lot of the problems people have with virtual. They just are not problems with in-person. Now that doesn't mean I think that people shouldn't have a virtual element to their services, but the other part of this is if you want to be an in-demand stylist, people that will pay the money for it, want a human body in their house, or in their life, or in their room, or in their training and that's never going to end. So you have to be comfortable in person and if you're out of sorts or you're a little rusty, this is a great place to get that training back, because you're with your peers, you're practicing, you're training your eye, you're watching. And I think this is the thing about group programs that's so cool, is you're learning. However many people in the room, you're 10xing your learning, because you're watching them, you're seeing their mistakes, you're seeing their questions.

Carrie Harkin: Yeah, I mean, one of the biggest things and that's another aspect, thank you for saying that, is that I feel so strongly about it, this is an opportunity to get together with your peers. You know, we're always so much on our own little island doing our thing and we're like, oh my God, are we doing this right? Like, what are you doing? So this is a great way to get in the room with other stylists. That was one big thing that all the stylists in my first, in my last training said. They're like, I just really loved being in the room and just talking with other stylists. And they just talk about whatever, their business and what's working, what's not working. That community, that I know, when people left that training, they were on a high, because of that. You don't get that virtually. You get little elements, but it's not the same thing.

Nicole Otchy: No, and I've thought a lot about this too. There is something too right now about in-person being the new luxury. And having this sort of knowledge and information is also a new wave of luxury. And I think it's going to be critical for stylists that want to succeed. So everything about it is an integrity with what you're trying to create. And it's been so amazing to watch you do it. So thank you for letting me be a part of it.

Carrie Harkin: Oh my gosh, Nicole, it wouldn't be happening without you.

Nicole Otchy: So if people want to hear about when your next training is, I know we got some West Coast, East Coast action happening in the next year or so. We will put a link in the show notes, so you can connect with Carrie. I'll also put her Instagram handle down. That's probably another great way to stay in touch. And I want to end it with a question that I love asking stylists in this. What are you most excited about, within the next, let's see, you have been in business four years, next four years of your business? What are you most excited about, Carrie?

Carrie Harkin: I'm excited about this training. I'm really excited to grow that and just have stylists be more aware of it and know that it's available. That I'm first and foremost, most excited about. But I'm also really excited about my clients, my personal styling clients and getting to grow with them and getting to meet new clients and just all of that, that whole, that's the heart too. I think that's why it's all going to be in person. I just want to meet you and I want to be with you and I'm just excited about all the people and the connections.

Nicole Otchy: Yeah, if you're listening to this thinking Carrie has amazing energy, you would be right. And I'm excited to be in one of those rooms, too, in the not so distant future. So come and join us. We're going to have the best time and we're going to redefine what it looks like to be a killer at color, because the industry needs it.

Carrie Harkin: Please. Yes, please. Let's make it better.

Nicole Otchy: Thank you for being here, Carrie.

Carrie Harkin: Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you so much for hanging out with me. It turns out that social proof is actually pretty important. So if you could help me out, I'd so appreciate it. If you just had a quick free moment and could leave me a rating or review on the podcast app, that would be killer. And even better, if you wanted to share this episode on Instagram and tag me, that would totally make my day and it would bring so much more awareness to the podcast and would help other stylists, just like you, who are looking to build a lucrative styling business. Because the better each of us does, the better all of us do.

Thanks for hanging out with me and I'll chat with you next time.